Last Stand of the Virtuous 5.5 [Jarek Redux] - BD/Decadent King Win!

[pandora]

@catbae

as in he is or you are

i read the first few zone posts and they all looked fucking weird okay

[pandora]

@Zone_Q11

Am strong and weak at the same type.
Not really an investigative, more like Killing.
Restrictions were set though.
Other than Killing, Investigative does not bring me much joy. Feels very lackluster.

Oh, and one other thingy or two.

very terse like there is a bit. and it IS a bit because this was a lie and the weird sentance structure looks like it’s supposed to cover for “Restrictions were set”

[pandora]

@Zone_Q11

Circumstance, not allowed willing.
Business, unfinished.

@Zone_Q11

@Atlas

then sleep

Circumstance, not allowed willing.
Business, unfinished.

@Atlas

by the way if you’re a stock unseen that doesn’t out themselves via their ability don’t claim
unless you want to get shot by the headhunter (anti-claim neut)

Not worry. Brain function enough. Fakeclaim.

@Zone_Q11

Brain not functioning properly. Presumption of cause: Sleep deprivation. Nutrients are sufficient. Lazy personality. Not want, read list role.

i don’t like this bit

[catbae]

that’s just zone being zone

he is >rand town imo

[Zone_Q11]

I blame that on my sleep deprivation, but hey: Your dislike is a cause for me to tunnel you, so I ain’t stopping you.

[Atlas]

fascinating developments are occuring

[Kiiruma]

I hate to be agreeing with something a good bit later that Catbae has already said, but I think Zone’s posts just read as… Zone, not alignment indicative.

[Atlas]

VOTE: childe

i agree that this seems like the most likely person to be evil, at the minute

[Atlas]

most posters just seem towny

[Chomps]

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[catbae]

@Atlas

most posters just seem towny

i think it’s kind of hard to say because, well, a bunch of people are inactive (fol moment)

can easily be a situation where we have a bunch of afks, some are scum, some are not, we basically have to rng our guesses and hope for the best, but also it is way too hard to solve who is evil in the active players

[Rhea]

I am posting my questions one-by-one so that they do not get lost in my catch-up post.

@Atlas

overexplained mech at every single moment to get townread

kelsier is the mildest of towny

Atlas, could you explain the source of this read? I find myself disagreeing at the point I am in thread.

[Atlas]

i have little to no explaination
i thought they were very, very, very mildly towny at that specific moment

[childe]

hi im here now.
think of the ao3 author curse but its me signing up to games
its like midnight ill. do stuff in the morning

[Chomps]

that’s so real

[Rhea]

Apologies again for my absence. It has been a hectic week, but I should be able to get to the game properly now. I am familiar with the setup, as I had a chance to read it over before signing up, though the large volume of content means that I do not feel especially confident in playing it.

@Amelia

I cc King

It is often said that entering based off of another’s opener is a wolftell, and while I do not agree with universal application of “objective” tells, I do agree that Amelia’s initial post is mildly wolfy in this particular context. It “leans on” Willow in a way that I find a wolf would be liable to do if Willow is town.

@Frostwolf103

@Monke

• Added a passive to the starting King: If the BD/HoB eliminates the king during the night, they are granted a boon or a debuff depending on the starting kings alignment. If the king was Unseen, then they gain access to a double kill the following night. If the king was Purified/Righteous, then the Unseen investigatives are guaranteed to succeed and gain true info during the following day and night.

• Added a new ability to the king: Guards! Default of one charge, (+1 if the king is paranoid, -1 if the king is warmongering). Allows the king to self-protect themselves. If the king is the paranoid king they can additionally decide which form of protection they receive (Death immunity or healing), and if they are the warmonger king, they will have to sacrifice wanted statuses on players for a charge of Guards!
• Marshal no longer makes themselves conversion immune along with their target. To compensate, may self-target themselves with the ability to make themselves conversion immune if they so choose.
• Page now has an additional ability, to give it something to do other than just sit around.
• Astrologer now flips as heroine.

Fuuuun…

@Frostwolf103

Serious note though, balance patch is sorely needed

@Frostwolf103

I just quoted from the OP, that’s what I mean

Opening with a strange complaint is something I’d tend to find towny, and my specific experience with Frostwolf103 would back that up – I do not know exactly what he is claiming needs a balance patch, but it doesn’t strike me as a thought that a wolf wants to present as their first thing coming into thread.

@Kelsier

Jackal lsotv
Also isnt death immunity and healing the same

@ElizaThePsycho

they have the same effect but certain things pierce one but not the other
and healing cures bleeds

@Amelia

They both prevent deaths, but healing doesn’t make a player death immune

This general line of pure-mechanical conversation from Willow, Kelsier, and Amelia is not something I am used to reading, as high-complexity open setups are not usually my cup of tea. It is something that may as well have happened pre-game, as far as reads are concerned.

For this reason, I find it difficult to look into any individual post as a reason to wolfread or townread a specific player, but it is still well possible to form reads on how a player goes about this kind of discussion and speculation. In particular, I find it likely that a wolf who is having trouble making an entrance into thread would lean on this mechanical discussion in order to be seen as a vocal player – unfortunately, all three of Willow, Amelia, or Canping could fit this specific bill at this time, and I do not think they make up the entire wolfteam. I almost have the instinct to say that there is exactly (or “at least”) one wolf in the three, but that is a completely arbitrary call reinforced by statistical likelihood, and it is one that I don’t think is actually supported by evidence. I dislike such ultimatums which do not actually provide any true reason that their converse is likely to be untrue.

Ultimately, the only action I’d like to take right now is to keep an eye on the trio’s future engagements to see if they show any trouble engaging in non-mechanical discussion.

@Zone_Q11

Am strong and weak at the same type.
Not really an investigative, more like Killing.
Restrictions were set though.
Other than Killing, Investigative does not bring me much joy. Feels very lackluster.

Oh, and one other thingy or two.

The immediate restriction of the claim-space is rather villagery from Zone_Q11 here. While there is no reason that a wolf cannot try to claim instantly, cutting away options for emergency, reactive claims, especially in a setup with falsifiable investigative information, is a significant disadvantage to a wolf, and one that I feel a mechanically-experienced player like Zone_Q11 would be less likely to take. Of course, such a claim carries social advantage, but it is usually not enough to make up for the lack of flexibility in one’s options.

A strange source of a read: when I have discussed setup design with Zone_Q11, he seemed to sometimes miss the social elements of role claiming in this way, and tends to think of mechanics and socials as separate objects. Our differing philosophies on anti-claim in particular reinforce this view. In that light, I feel somewhat better about townreading this claim.

@Daeron

I certainly am alive

@Kelsier

Not anymore im gonna poss jump u

This is a mildly villagery opening from Daeron, as it is unafraid of looking awkward and stilted in a way that I feel wolves tend to avoid. The engagement from Kelsier strikes me as awkward for similar reasons to Amelia’s opener (though to less of a degree, as it is not Kelsier’s very first post).

@Zone_Q11

First order of business: [REDACTED – SENSITIVE WORD]

Finding random target…

VOTE: Amelia

I find the announcement of “finding random target” to be slightly awkward here, though it does not especially clash with my understanding of Zone_Q11’s personality. From another player, I would find it wolfier, but I am willing to let it slide here.

@Atlas

all hail
i can’t read anyone off of mech talk
the basis is worth it, even if it’ll only come to play later

I do agree with Atlas’s opener here: the start of this game was unusually difficult to read because of its density of mechanical talk. Sharing this initial observation rather than trying to force reads in an opener is somewhat villagery.

@Atlas

if you meta jarek you can just find out what king & type i am quickly

Similarly, I do slightly like the confidence of this post: an Atlas who has received an Evil King rolecard knows that Jarek is the type to place an Evil King in the game, and unless Atlas found this fact especially shocking, would be more liable to assume that others could deduce this information. I am not especially familiar with Jarek’s setup design sense or the setup here, though, so this introduces some hesitance into the read: there is still the case where Atlas was surprised to receive an Evil King rolecard.

@ElizaThePsycho

I wouldn’t put it past jarek to put in an EK, given the completely ridiculous double kill when attacking GK (seriously why did I approve that)

@Amelia

Lets see

It’s been unseen king for most past virtuouses, we’ve never had warmonger king

You’re scum warmonger king VOTE: Atlas

I will confess that I have been posting and reading slightly non-chronologically: the immediate put-down from the other players colours my read on Atlas significantly, though not in one cohesive direction. It makes it clear that Atlas’s point about using meta on Jarek was not solid, and I find points which are non-solid in this exact way to be especially wolf-indicative, as ultimately wolves are by far the most likely to have arguments which just do not add up. However, it makes it harder to imagine a well-informed evil Atlas choosing to make this point in sincerity: Atlas could simply not be well-informed on how this argument would be received, of course, but I am still given pause.

@Daeron

please do not provide mechanical advice to the blue dragon, should they exist

@Kelsier

Please provide false mechanical advice to the blue dragon

I will admit that I got a laugh out of this interaction, though I find it difficult to see as alignment-indicative for Daeron. Kelsier has continued to engage with the thread primarily to quip off of others’ posts, which I continue to find wolfy.

@Atlas

you’re just trying to seem helpful to get townread
it’s fine

@ElizaThePsycho

I think it beyond my capabilities to NOT explain every little design decision and bit as any alignment tbh

I do inexplicably like this interaction from Atlas, though I am not sure exactly why. Normally I am able to explain my instincts: this one I cannot.

@Daeron

oh no totally but I will be assigning you as slightly-higher-than-most-people for probability of scum aligned neutral as a result of this, to be sure
I hope we are clear on this but I will say it is definitely not groupscum indicative so I am going to ignore it

I have had a long day and it is getting late for me, so my eyes are beginning to glaze over at this thread. This is a thoughtful post from Daeron which indicates a certain mindset that I would like to ensure they are consistent with in the future, but I am struggling to make an alignment call on this post in particular.

@ElizaThePsycho

There’s a read on kyo there but im too tired to figure it out

Presuming Kyo refers to Daeron from the context of future replies, I actually like the exact mind-meld here from Willow: we both agree that there is a read to be found on Daeron, but it is difficult to figure out at present due to external circumstances. The fact that we are both tired is, of course, not alignment indicative, but seeing the same results from that tiredness and having the same reaction to this post is nice to see.

@Atlas

daeron trying to be nice is prolly town ai

Though I am not familiar with the meta that produced it, and I try not to use second-hand meta regardless, I find this call to be rather reductive in a way that somewhat softens my positive opinion on Atlas. This is twice now that I have felt significant dissonance in our reads, which is not a sign I especially like: the town, of course, are not just the players who agree with me, but I am my best example of a town thought process, and consistent deviation from this is a warning sign.

@Kelsier

Eyy being very mildly townread by a king thats going to die is nice

This is the first post from Kelsier that I have actually found villagery, though it does not entirely cancel out the awkwardness of the previous posts.

@ElizaThePsycho

Nah, just the nuance seems uninformed to me ig?
Idk. Brain not braining

Standing up to the read I found awkward and reductive is another good sign from Willow.

@Atlas

willow is probably a neutral
or really excited about the setup and not the game

A third dissonant read. Of course, my read on Willow is based on our agreeing, so this is not surprising. I do not think this disagreement actually indicates much about Atlas’s alignment. If I were a different kind of player, I would say a read as specifically a neutral is wolf-indicative for Atlas, but I do not believe in that kind of tell.

@Zone_Q11

@Atlas

by the way if you’re a stock unseen that doesn’t out themselves via their ability don’t claim

unless you want to get shot by the headhunter (anti-claim neut)

Not worry. Brain function enough. Fakeclaim.

Calling out a fakeclaim immediately… does negate my named reason to townread Zone_Q11, and I do not understand the mechanical purpose of instantly backtracking on the claim. However, I am not going to entirely retract my townread here.

@Atlas

…is that why i couldn’t find any invest that kills.

@Zone_Q11

…no comment.

…well, nevermind. My thought was that Zone_Q11 was simply lying about having fakeclaimed in order to backtrack on a true claim, but if there is no existing role that Zone_Q11 could be (I do not have time to check the list at the moment), then that theory cannot be true. I suppose I do have no reason to townread him after all. This does not, however, constitute a wolfread.

@catbae

not me getting into another mechanically complex game i am too lazy to figure out

I find this opener to be wholly non-alignment indicative, much like the majority of the mechanical discussion we have seen.

@catbae

willow being excited about the setup probably not alignment indicative

did kind of like the fact she said she’d be unavailable for most of the day but has hung around and posted a lot

light read but would be a good excuse to lurk as evil and she kept posting instead

I did fail to think of this reasoning for townreading Willow (despite agreeing with the read overall), and I find it to be solid, though I do not think this is an especially good reason to townread catbae – this is an easy read to make.

@catbae

everyone who has posted so far seems all right to me

high level reads

@Atlas

how’d you get this read on amelia?

I appreciate the specific question from Atlas here – it shows some level of curiosity. catbae’s post continues to be difficult for me to pull anything from, though I may just be getting tired.

@soweli

ok! I’m not reading any more posts. realtiming only from now on

This is another opener that backpacks off somebody else’s post, though I can see better where it would come from as a villager – it is a reaction to the first post soweli saw rather than a reply to a later post indicating reading-but-not-writing. Ultimately, I also feel neutral about this post. Perhaps I should get some rest.

@Chomps

VOTE: Atlas

@Chomps

the host account is called psycho king therefore it is the truth

@Chomps

19 minutes of no message dead game dadv 16 scum slots

@Chomps

the real reason is a king kill is always benefitial

@Chomps

town king gives evils a double kill when killed by them, lynch doesn’t pop that
any other flavor of evil king is good to lynch ofc and evils probably have tools to find them

@Chomps

i don’t think evils are gonna try but don’t convert me i will lose all motivation I don’t like converted evil and it’ll be super obvious

This burst of posts is… something I would call villagery from anybody else, but Chomps showed ability to take on this kind of tone in Kakegurui: Compulsive Gambler Mafia and ultimately won the game off of it.

@Kiiruma

I personally think that players will be able to show themselves decently well alignment wise early on based on our playerlist but because of conversion we need to be cautious about people we clear. Some people seem to forget that those who are trusted just become primary conversion targets lol

This is… an obvious statement.

My reads are clearly decaying and I am no longer giving meaningful thoughts on these players, so I am going to call it a night. I am very sorry for my lack of ability to play, and I hope I will be feeling more refreshed tomorrow. Thank you for your patience.

To give a rough idea of where I am at:

Willow t
Frostwolf103 lt
Daeron n
Atlas n
Zone_Q11 n
Amelia n
Kelsier lw

soweli, Chomps, catbae, and Kiiruma n, though in a “lack of parsed content” sense rather than having seen sufficient readable posts but receiving no strong lean from them: I suspect my lack of read here is more due to my own exhaustion than it is to being in a truly “null position”.

[Atlas]

i’m surprised you read the thread and only came out with three reads
equally that you had a lot to say about myself but came to no conclusion

i’m privy to text walls, but i can’t particularly say “i’m waiting for you to say more”.

do you have any games of yourself as wolf avaliable

[pandora]

what’s yup

[Kelsier]

@Rhea

all three of Willow, Amelia, or Canping

Will i get death tunneled again because someone will think i am canping and death tunnel me for not having enough substance in posts?

[Daeron]

atlas is town