Weekly Monday Discussion #6 - Computers

[Chloe]

and yes i realize programs like this (probably) don’t exist rn so im arguing against something that isn’t even relevant in this exact moment, but i do expect that if we allow tools then things like that are bound to be made and used in the future unless we address it now

[Zugzwang]

I’m neutral on whether scheduling posts should be allowed; they’re not that useful except for posting at sod when one is asleep (which isn’t very important). (or as Hippo mentioned, they could be used to instantly ITA at the start of a window, which is a bit sus yeah)

I agree having a program read thread and listen for certain content/people to post should probably be disallowed.

(more thoughts soontm)

[May]

@katze

i hate it here

it’s not even CLOSE to monday!!!

@orangeandblack5

Actually you can see the exact millisecond it was posted (or at least when it was registered to the server)

THESE POSTS HAVE BEEN AUTOMATICALLY SYNTHESISED BY MY NEW PROGRAM “Post Alchemy”:

Using the page source to determine exactly how many milliseconds from Monday this discussion was posted

[Zugzwang]

@Arete

• It was also recently discovered that you can view the exact second a post was posted by viewing the source code of the page, which is not normally available in the thread.

this was not that recent tho thbthbthtbhtbhtbthb

[orangeandblack5]

@Chloe

the second the use of a private tool is mentioned in the thread, the player that used the tool has an advantage because other people can’t easily counter some arguments if they don’t also have access to that tool - like word frequency, for example (ex. arete said nya 5x more as a wolf in the past year so they must be a wolf here)

we can’t rly moderate people privately using a program to parse data/info, but if the info you get from it is going to be shared in the thread, i think everyone should have access to that tool, if that makes sense

You can see why I draw a parallel to player meta, which is already exactly that lol

[Zugzwang]

@orangeandblack5

Actually you can see the exact millisecond it was posted (or at least when it was registered to the server)

I’ve been using the raw text pages which only have the second
I’ll try to find the millisecond info tho

[Zugzwang]

As for other tools (searching / multi-iso / vote compilation / post delay graphing / read storage etc), I think they’re fine to use.

I don’t like the idea of creating a suite of tools that only I have access to, as that feels kinda unfair, which is why I have released multi-iso and vote compilation, and plan to release post delay graphing and read storage once I polish it enough.

That being said, I think requiring tools to be released for use during games is probably bad - I wouldn’t want to release work-in-progress untested code, and games are a good way to test ease of use, and find any edge cases I wouldn’t otherwise have thought of.

[May]

“Post Alchemy” update: okay apparently I would’ve gotten kind of close if I’d actually automated this but it has that wretched insidious ChatGPT tone to it

[Zugzwang]

@Arete

• Hypothetically, a user could potentially develop a better search tool than those currently available in Discourse, which could enable them to more easily find specific posts.

IDK if this was thought of due to the fact I can often find posts in seconds, but no I haven’t been making such a tool, I just can often remember a specific phrase to search for. Though that’s a good idea and I should probably write it…

[orangeandblack5]

it’s just unix epoch

[Zugzwang]

oh cool

also IDK if you heard this but the raw text pages occasionally have incorrect timestamps (not sure if the same error happens to normal timestamps)

(I know some of the raw text timestamps are wrong because they go backwards)

[Zugzwang]

example

[orangeandblack5]

link me to those posts?

[Zugzwang]

[Game Thread] Morbtainado - Morbfia EPIC win

Man, I’m having trouble reading this game, even after looking back. There really were no wrong options for scum with that Pigeon wagon, since it seemed pretty obvious the whole time that it would be Pigeon getting voted out (and even if it wasn’t, that Pigeon would be voted out soon). I’ll take some of the blame for that - I started the wagon, I didn’t encourage a counterwagon until someone else started it, and I should have switched back to Pigeon later - but it’s certainly not all my fault. O…

[orangeandblack5]

yeah the timestamp on may’s post is wrong

this is very likely because it was edited?

[Daeron]

fundementally I think it runs into “what is mafia” - if the community considers that research & data compliation skills are part of mafia and not just analysis of said data then ban computerized tools
I’m seeing a slippery slope of where it could get to a point that programs can compile & process so much data that it’s physically impossible for a human to do the same task by EoD deadlines

[Daeron]

really the problem is that not everyone has access to those types of programs, or rather not everyone has the skillset to create those types of programs
we agree that if people are on equal footing (like everyone having access to discourse ISOs or whatever) then it’s fair
so I suppose if you force developers to disclose source code of programs if they’re going to use them in game that’s fine, but also mehhhh

…

tbh this type of thing should be kept within a special game category, that expressly allows the use of a computerised tools to assist in playing mafia

[Chloe]

yeah tbh the easiest (and most tempting) option is to just ban outside programs and only allow those that are part of the site

---

on that note we could try to get a multi-iso plugin so that everyone has access to it, but there are some annoying factors that go into getting new custom plugins as well lol

(for clarity the most annoying factor is that we’d have to update to the newest Discourse version, which is VERY ugly and also very stupid

i swear every time they update the software just gets more complicated and stupid looking)

[Daeron]

@orangeandblack5

Tools that search or synthesize information accessible to anybody with access to the webpage should be allowed, full stop, no requirement to disclose use

Why? This expressly starts introducing programming skills into mafia. Mafia is not intended to measure programming skills.

[Zugzwang]

oh that would explain it
and yeah that makes the timestamps match