Library of Ruina FM - Day 3 - Mafia Wins

[Zone_Q11]

@FreezinIce

snow - dont remember anything re this slot

Told everyone gummy is “weak investigator”.
Some players townread them solely for that.

@FreezinIce

At least my slot will be flipping soon

Negative. Full flips only show up if players mis-execute. The best you can get is an alignment-flip.

@Frostwolf103

@Zone_Q11

My memory might be poor, but I do not recall Leafia mentioning anything about loyalty.

The reference is in Starcraft Overhaul

Different game → Irrelevant.

[Frostwolf103]

I don’t think so

[Zone_Q11]

You are free to think so. I disagree with you because I do not understand what you are trying to say.

[Frostwolf103]

I am going to put this way: I could be mistaken about Leafia and get my paranoia get better of me, on starcraft overhaul its that bodyguard would die in target’s place, the exact scenario that plays in Library of Ruina in your words, is different yes.

I am more concerned about the claim being potentially fake.

[Frostwolf103]

#2616

#2613

#2605

[Frostwolf103]

Take what you will, it doesnt add up.

[The_Head]

EggYolk (6): Jarek, Rue, Leafia, FreezinIce, Chomps, Frostwolf103
Chomps (3): tutuu, snow, SultanOfSlam
iamagummybear (1): ACE
Rue (1): Zone_Q11
Spiritualized (1): Wazza

Not Voting (3): EggYolk, Spiritualized, iamagummybear

[Zone_Q11]

@Frostwolf103

Take what you will, it doesnt add up.

Her claim adds up IYAM.

Hey @Leafia, remember the following post?

@Leafia

If the one I’m protecting with my first ability dies somehow,

Remember: You got redirected away from Achro to “someone else”, and according to ACE and tutuu, that “someone else” is a Mafia member.

Now repeat what I just told you, and ask yourself: “Is your N1 target dead?”

In case you say “Yes”, then here’s another question:
Is the “someone else” dead?

[Zone_Q11]

@Leafia

my second ability gdts locked and disabled unfortunately and I lose the ability to be protected.

@Leafia

Also, I’m useless now since my target died, which has also made it so that I can’t be protected from death sadly.

…I’m starting to see why Frostwolf said Leafia’s role is odd though.

@Leafia, hosts ought to inform you if your ability gets locked and disabled, (and if they didn’t, then you can just ask for confirmation,) so why did you come to the conclusion that you are Macho without fact-checking this matter?

[EggYolk]

Eugh, waking up to a substantial wagon on me. Better than last time I guess? I’ll be reading back this time.

@Zone_Q11

Huh. I only learned that Mafia have Key Pages after I asked the hosts at D2; after the Book of Library was burned.

Uh. Yeah. EggYolk needs to talk about this.

As I said, my rolecard mentioned it. More specifically, the context is that I am an Investigative who can learn someone’s role OR their key page if they’re Mafia. It takes at minimum a cycle worth of preperation(and an action the next night) for this to happen.

This is because for that, my target needs to have Karmic Consequences, which you get from breaking the Prescripts. D1 my early game target of Achro which came out really badly(I won’t fault anyone for suspecting me because of this), I got the ability last night to send Achro extra prescripts today after I sent him an impossible to complete one yesterday.

@EggYolk

Bleh, my action on Achro went through but the action’s benefit I would have gotten would only have been useful next night so. Urgh.

Anyways, while the Prescript thing was a slip, the Key Page was something I deliberately mentioned. Why would I do that as a Mafia?

Mafia!EggYolk uses this knowledge of the Key pages to walk back on claiming a green check on someone townread by 90% of people and immediately started speculating about their role, presumably in an attempt to make people think of me as town.

This doesn’t happen(because revealing esoteric knowledge is infact not towny. At all) and gives more disadvantages than advantages to mafia.

@FreezinIce

There is nothing in the game that we know now that suggests wolves get new key pages when we burn books. The only thing that points to the is Ruina metaknowledge but thats kind of a stretch

What made you believe this is the case?

@The_Head

• Upon burning an Unstable Book, a general overview of the role in question & the potential counterplays it has will be revealed to everyone.
• In addition, all Mafia players will be granted Key Pages , which is an additional role that could potentially be in the game as a Town role.

I initially read this as “Upon burning an Unstable book, … In addition [to burning an unstable book] all Mafia players will be granted Key Pages”, carried this misconception a while into the day

@EggYolk

Yup. My reasoning for the Red Mist was because I didn’t like the idea of Burning the Library book. Take that for what you will, in hindsight it doesn’t look nice to burn Mafia books and give them key pages.

@EggYolk

Moreso, I don’t think the Unstable Book of the Black Silence has given us that powerful information to “counter” the role. Even though it is good to know that Mafia have an investigator on hand with those abilities.

I actually am unable to find the message where Zone got “Host clarification” on this, but I did come online way after this discussion still with the misconception in mind.

If I am Mafia, then either (1) I am ““slipping”” yet another important detail to town for seemingly no advantage. Or (2) I have a misconception about a thing that has already occurred in the game to me.

Completely unrelated, funny thing I found over here:

@tutuu

A possibity for Egg’s role, if mafia, is this: Egg knows all town members who are of your “clan”, who are forced to obey orders. Egg creates his own orders, and sends them out to you via the host. You must obey, and you probably receive some bonus or protection if you do, and punishment if you don’t. Subjective, as decided by Willow. Willow likes designing player freedom and subjective rewards. And Eggs is probably trying to push wolf agenda with that, by forcing you to vote Rue who I suspect is a villager.

This is just a far-fetched theory, I’m not married to it. I just suspect Egg independently, and this is one possibility of what’s happening

I actually DO create my own orders, but I don’t know my fellow Index and I can actually send orders to everyone(As I said on D1)… And then I proceed to send an Order to Zone to vote for my Day 1 scumread which would help the wagon… how other than the one vote on it?? Would people really go for a wagon with a “mandatory vote”??

@Leafia

That’s far from my only reason. The main reason is that Egg’s reads feelfaked. They don’t feel real to me. Most of my read on Egg is simply gut though.

Can’t even argue with this one because there really is no argument. I don’t know why “my reads feel fake” has been said multiple times this game. They’re not. If it’s another way to say “fucking stupid”, I invite y’all to go for it, really. But what exactly is fake about them??

Earlier it was said that it feels like I’ve been forced to give a read list, by whom?? Mafia chat? In a similar vein

@Leafia

They don’t alwayz want people to forgrt about them and sometimes they want to mske it look like they want people to remember them. Sometimes they even want to be rememberdd. It isn’t a hard and fast rule.

It seems that my accusation is somehow based both on me being “too much in the backround” and “sailboating throughout the game”, at the same time I am also “slipping Mafia knowledge” and “Making fake reads”.

I don’t want to jump to conclusions saying that this is a malicious push on me, I townread a lot of the people in my Wagon(and very meekly obey a green check I believe one has). But do people not see the cognitive dissonance in play with it? Each person has contradictory reasons to scumread me.

[EggYolk]

Quote I wanted to add before I made my next post

@Jarek

Eggyolk is someone who I have nary seen in this game, though I have seen them posting and putting their thoughts down into glorious wordly fashion I feel they have no really moved the needle or done much to progress the game and thus fit the bill of what kind of player I am looking for in this “anti-boat rocking” fashion.

Another example of the “anti-boat rocking” accusation, the start of this wagon.

followed by

@Jarek

I feel like not many players have considered eggyolk one way or another and I think that in the midst of things there exists a world where everyone has been shouting and arguing over eachother and possibly we’re all just townies.

Wherein I have been… in almost everyone’s premature wolf teams filling the mysterious “fourth wolf slot”

[Zone_Q11]

@EggYolk

Anyways, while the Prescript thing was a slip, the Key Page was something I deliberately mentioned. Why would I do that as a Mafia?

I don’t know, but if you’re Town, then you need to interact more with the other players. The mech oddity that Freezin found is now resolved, but from a social POV you haven’t done much solving or posting to make anyone townread you.

---

@EggYolk

I actually am unable to find the message where Zone got “Host clarification” on this,

I assume you meant P#3666:

@Zone_Q11

Mafia already has access to Key Pages at start of game; I asked the hosts about this.

Anyone can confirm what I did by asking the host whether Mafia gains Key Pages by burning Unstable Books, or whether they start with them.

---

@EggYolk

It seems that my accusation is somehow based both on me being “too much in the backround” and “sailboating throughout the game”, at the same time I am also “slipping Mafia knowledge” and “Making fake reads”.

I don’t want to jump to conclusions saying that this is a malicious push on me, I townread a lot of the people in my Wagon(and very meekly obey a green check I believe one has). But do people not see the cognitive dissonance in play with it? Each person has contradictory reasons to scumread me.

…? None of their arguments are contradictory IYAM.

Being in the background and sailboating basically mean the same thing, which was caused due to your lack of activity in the thread. (Which you already explained was because of your IRL circumstances, but the players don’t have infinite patience.)

You are slipping and breadcrumbing your role’s information, which became a concering matter because you were not present to explain them.

Making fake reads– Yeah, no. This is just Leafia (and IIRC one other player) doing her(/their) own thing(s).

[Frostwolf103]

UNVOTE

[Frostwolf103]

@Zone_Q11

@Leafia, hosts ought to inform you if your ability gets locked and disabled, (and if they didn’t, then you can just ask for confirmation,) so why did you come to the conclusion that you are Macho without fact-checking this matter?

I am itchy of getting the wagon rolled in that direction whether Leafia answer this or not, Loyal Bodyguard dies in place the target get attacked, no matter the circumstance what happen to the bodyguard whatsoever, there’s no such thing as Macho and Loyal modifiers…these are in direct conflict

Macho as you are aware, only applies to self-resolving roles like Innocent Child, Loyal isn’t like polar opposite of Weak, which dies on visiting opposing faction while Loyal is tied to one player, not that only works in same alignment. I am arguing that’s how Loyal modifier works.

The starcraft overhaul has publicly reveal of Loyal Bodyguard role if you’re planning to look into that.

[Zone_Q11]

@Frostwolf103

I am arguing that’s how Loyal modifier works.

Bud. I am the designer of all Overhaul games run on FoL.
My Loyal is not “this ability only works on same alignment, and otherwise it fails”; that would be FoL’s definition of Loyal.
My Loyal simply means that “once you choose a target, you must continue choosing that target”.

I assume you meant Zone’s Loyal when you are talking about Leafia’s role –and yeah, that is probably the type of modifier she has? I think she is now stuck bodyguarding some unknown Mafia member.

[Zone_Q11]

@Frostwolf103

Macho as you are aware, only applies to self-resolving roles like Innocent Child

Well. Technically, there could be a Neutral Killing, so it wouldn’t be weird if Mafia has a form of Protective roles (e.g., Redi-2 who Wazza claimed to have visited her) or roles with a Macho modifier.

Having that said, I townread Leafia for her social in-thread behavior; not because of her role.

[EggYolk]

That post was solely to defend me, now to point fingers.

@Frostwolf103

I am going to put this way: I could be mistaken about Leafia and get my paranoia get better of me, on starcraft overhaul its that bodyguard would die in target’s place, the exact scenario that plays in Library of Ruina in your words, is different yes.

I am more concerned about the claim being potentially fake.

Leafia said her flavour was Bamboo Hatted Kim, a Character who wished to protect their subordinates, had the passive “Unrelenting” which made him immune to death for a turn. Overall, I trust that The Bamboo Hatted Kim ability is protection.

BUT… what the hell is up with the cohesion of this ability? From what we have learned, it has lost all it’s potency after being redirected and wasted. Even though the second member(implied to be Mafia) is still alive? Is this a built in clause in the ability? Only Leafia knows!

What this makes me think is, that Bamboo Hatted Kim is a decent Key Page(probably with weaker protection, if I think about it) that has been co-opted to a more powerful town ability which will conveniently never effect the game.

This of course, still doesn’t address the green check on Leafia being that she was redirected, which is the only reason I haven’t been pushing more for this. Especially not as much as yesterday.

@Zone_Q11

• I (can) find Town by reading the measure of their suffering. What I felt from gummy when reading her posts after you pointed out her fumble was [distress] and [defeatism]. She was [fragile], however she did not exactly [suffer]. (At least, I cannot feel it.)

You (tutuu) suffered, because despite having multiple players get angry at you, you kept on re-evaluating and updating your reads-list.

gummy chose “the easy way out”; [admitting defeat], [craving death]. If she’s Town, then her action is something I do not perceive as towny, because Mafia can do the exact same thing, as mentioned in P#3344.

I regret to inform you that I lack both (1) the memory of my past games with gummy and (2) the heart to empathize with people “normally”, so I (personally) don’t know how reliable your personality-read on gummy is.

• Yeah, I did see her recovering from her mental breakdown and giving her reads-list before she got exhausted. I can see why this is towny, but I uh… I am greedy, I suppose. I still want to see more of her. (Because she has yet to case me.)

I really wish I could have made a case on Zone over here, because I initially found it very hard to believe that Zone scumread me, but Zone’s iso has only been towny in my eyes :(, so I’ll instead move on to my third case.

What the hell is up with the immediate gummy townreads? I agree that the wagon on her was a little overzealous("“slip up”") but.

@EggYolk

At this point we’ve had like 5/6 times that Tutuu has went “X player crashed out, Wolf would never” and I think at some point Wolf will/has taken advantage of that.

I can’t help but feel like this keeps being taken advantage of, and at this point, for someone to fall this much for AtE, I have been starting to turn my read on Tutuu around.

Firstly, was this:

@tutuu

Imo gummy is incredibly pure socially and that overrides the rest, for me.

I obviously disagree with this sentiment, all across the gummy wagon Tutuu did make good points(which I want to attribute to the flimsy mech based push on gummy rather than the focus on the rotten socials). But gummy? Being pure socially? After forfeiting defending herself? Being so willing to after “One of me, Chomps or Wazza” that Tutuu is willing to say this

@tutuu

Think Chomps is a wolf for trying to get gummy hammered and convince me to not clear her. This rides on pre-flipping Gummy town, which I’m willing to risk.

Weird gummy defense aside, my second reasoning for doubting Tutuu is the team constructed purely out of convenience

@tutuu

Chomps
EggYolk
Wazza
Freezin

This is da wae

@Wazza

they’re calling it the worst wolf team of all time

I know Wazza said that it’s not readwise the worst(it isn’t. I’ll give it that. Personally, I think Chomps is easy picking for a wolf), but it is worst in the way that: It depends on every wolf being the most terrible player they can be. Saying “I will explode Day 3” Being an information slip machine. Being Chomps.

If someone’s wolf team has me and two people I believe strongly to be town, I immediately will start doubting the credibility of the poster. Especially since it’s NOW that the reads have truly crystalized. And that the poster is going so far as to defend gummy over this team.

It all circles back to this image of wolves we have seemed to make where they have no power in town square at all. And they’re all “drifting by while being almost entirely uncoordinated” also if you look at the first letter of all their posts, they’re spelling out the exact text of their rolecard.

TL;DR is. If you kill me and I flip town, this is where you should stab into because I do not trust these players.

[Frostwolf103]

@Zone_Q11

Having that said, I townread Leafia for her social in-thread behavior; not because of her role.

@EggYolk

BUT… what the hell is up with the cohesion of this ability? From what we have learned, it has lost all it’s potency after being redirected and wasted. Even though the second member(implied to be Mafia) is still alive? Is this a built in clause in the ability? Only Leafia knows!

The target wouldn’t have been changed.

[EggYolk]

@Zone_Q11

Anyone can confirm what I did by asking the host whether Mafia gains Key Pages by burning Unstable Books, or whether they start with them.

Yeah I believe you, I was just unable to find it. “Key Pages” and “Clarification” were too wide of terms to search

@Zone_Q11

…? None of their arguments are contradictory IYAM.

I really do believe slipping mafia information and attempting to be in the background are contradictory. How can one attempt to be in the background while giving information? Sounds like a balancing act worth no one’s information. Though I do understand your point about this

@Zone_Q11

You are slipping and breadcrumbing your role’s information, which became a concering matter because you were not present to explain them.

@Zone_Q11

Making fake reads– Yeah, no. This is just Leafia (and IIRC one other player) doing her(/their) own thing(s).

It was also said by one of gummy or sultan earlier(I don’t remember), though I am glad you agree. I tried hard scumreading you, because that was my initial reaction, but failed.

[EggYolk]

Huh. Only the protection changes targets for the night but the original target of the ability doesn’t(since it was set yesterday) and still triggers the becoming useless part? I guess that’ll work. But a lot of my other points remain.