Poor Approximations of Catgirls - Thread 1

I was skipping around through people’s ISOs at that time, particularly ones that I didn’t really have any thoughts about at the time. :3

TARGET VOTES VOTED BY
Arete 6/12 Arctic (#1362); LASERpointer (#3152); Marshal (#3019); nutella (#2829); WindwardAway (#1526); Wisdom (#3218)
Wazza 4/12 Arete (#948); Hippopablompoyeetus (#2824); JohnCarter (#166); Marluxion (#593)
Squirrel2412 5/12 bladescape (#2877); Mistyx (#2179); nightingale (#2895)
JohnCarter 2/12 Vulgard (#3275); Wazza (#120)
Marshal 1/12 Moonwink (#3343)
InternetStranger 1/12 Illwei (#2524)
WindwardAway 1/12 Kyubey (#3155)
Not Voting 5 alana; InternetStranger; Millium; min (#318); Squirrel2412 (#566)

Hmm… Arete asked me to leave the Squirrel wagon when it was tied with their own.

Now that I’ve left it, it actually put his in the lead. Interesting… :3

2 Likes

/vote Wazza @Nyarchmage

both players are strong wolves and both are easily able to converse without looking awkward

imo both are among the top 5 best wolves in the playerlist

to find people who aren’t w/w you’re gonna need to look at pushes and vote timings post flips. the fol average of being able to communicate without seeming weird isn’t really gonna work here

1 Like

/vote Nutella @Nyarchmage

Tbf I did hard scumread you on D4 before that but then decided to lynch my other scumread Kito who was very sure that the scum team was Sean and Fext and flipped town. This made me later think that Sean and Fext were scum and their plan was to set up mislynches in a certain order by getting rid of kito then getting me to hammer town!you at lylo because I thought you were lhf while fext looked more teamed with your teammate sean than you

I was going to be selfish and let Min believe we couldn’t be w/w due to that, but yeah, this is unfortunately true. XD

2 Likes

I think I’m gonna get back to bed now. G’night y’all. <3

(I’m planning on ISOing you before EoD, Marl, so I’ll probably have more stuff to talk about with you soon. <3)

1 Like

Also the ‘she was all over the place’ wasn’t trying to brag about being able to read you it was stating a fact about how you acted as scum on that day

Marshal is probably a wolf

(and also you should listen to me about it)

It has a lot of words, I’m sorry. If you don’t want to read all of the words, I recommend reading the section labelled “Important context post” and then the quotes in the Vul and Arctic sections (you don’t have to read the full sections) and drawing your own conclusions, but I do think that ‘actually reading the whole thing’ is possible.

I am writing this to persuade people not to solve Marshal, I already did the ‘solving Marshal’ thing and having done that I am writing this post.

Important context post that I’m quoting out of order

this is the post that made me go from ‘Marshal is probably a wolf but could be town having a super super super off game’ to ‘Marshal is a wolf and should die’

I am quoting it at the beginning so that people can keep in mind, while reading the rest of this post, that supposedly, taking Marshal at her word, she didn’t really wolfread them she was mostly suspicious because she was mad at them

and I think that looking at her read on Vul and Arctic, that is clearly false

General approach stuff

So there are a couple reasons why I think Marshal’s approach is wolfy.

  • As town Marshal tends to focus more on building a towncore, she does also do the pushing wolfreads thing but the main thing she focuses on is towncoring people (to the point that at one point she correctly called me out for failing to acknowledge that this was her playstyle – I think this was Meowntainado but I’m not sure). As scum she tends to focus less on making a towncore and more on tunnelling her individual “wolfreads” to try to get them misexe’d – to be clear, she does also push people as V, she just additionally tries to build a towncore while doing it. I think her play this game is much more typical of her wolf game, she has made like 1 post that actually expresses a towncore + a handful of posts expressing villagereads but has basically done nothing to actually turn those townreads into something actually resembling a towncore or convince other people of them.
  • As town she mostly does not try to discredit people for bad reasons, as scum she does that a lot – like, in Meowntainado, when I was actively trying to get her misexe’d and making the world’s worst push on her, she still heard me out and considered my slot fairly, whereas in (mentally insert a list of every Marshal scumgame you personally are aware of) she did not do that. This isn’t just about her interactions with me, to be clear, I do think those are wolfy but even if you cut literally all the Aretestuff from here I think the case is still correct.

Discrediting Arctic

throughout her early interactions with Arctic, Marshal basically tried to shut him down, box him out, and generally cause people not to listen to him, for reasons that mostly kind of sucked

KEEP IN MIND THAT MARSHAL SAID “i only wolfread them because I was mad at their arguments against me”

I actually think those are okay/not wolfy, I’m mostly quoting them as context for the rest of her read

This reason is pretty clearly fabricated. Like if you strip out all the rhetoric Marshal is arguing “Arctic is Mafia because people are defending her which indicates that wolves wanted to stop her from being pushed” – that’s not a strawman, that’s her actual argument. She just completely ignores the possibility of, for instance, Arctic being town who is being defended correctly by towns.

She also makes what would theoretically be a super relevant gamestate read if her read is correct, and just … doesn’t do anything with it. “Who this indicates idrc” – if she actually believed that Arctic was a wolf because she was being defended by wolves, I think she would have at least checked who was defending her.

this post is ~fine

Arctic makes a villagery post and Marshal goes out of her way to try to make it look wolfy, I could understand a tunnelled villager not townreading it/thinking people shouldn’t townread her for it but I really feel like Marshal is bending over backwards to try to make it look specifically-wolfy

I think I’m explaining that badly

closer-to-what-I mean is … the conclusion is written before the reasons, Marshal started out making the argument that that post was wolfy and then came up with reasons why it was wolfy, instead of just trying to figure out if it was wolfy or not

this post is specifically terrible in the context of Marshal saying “i only wolfread them because I was mad at their arguments against me”

like I’m trying to imagine town-Marshal getting mad that Arctic was scumreading her, OMGUSing her, and then warping all the rest of her reads to also be about that, while aware on some level that her push on Arctic was born from OMGUS

this (specifically the second paragraph) is another read that starts with the conclusion – ‘Arctic is wolf, because she’s trying to get a push or read going’ – and makes no consideration of the possibility of her being town trying to get a push or read going

this one is also inconsistent with the world where she didn’t really believe it and was mostly just mad

this is another conclusion-first post, but at least it’s honest about being that

this post is actually fine/something town-Marshal could plausibly believe

this is overrepresenting how bad Arctic’s post was to make her look worse (to be fair Marshal does do that as town sometimes, but in the context of the rest of her Iso I think it’s agenda-y)

this is just flat wrong even if Arctic is a wolf which makes me think it’s deliberately BS

legit the only way he’s similar is that in both games he started wolfclaiming when he got pressured

she has several posts like this and it feels like a significant overreaction to Arctic pointing out that Marshal has misread her – like she’s making what Arctic was saying sound more extreme by using loaded phrasing like “painting me like the ultimate willager” when Arctic wasn’t actually doing that

shades Arctic for something that wasn’t actually wolf-AI and that I don’t think she would believe was wolf-AI

continues to shade Arctic for being inflammatory despite that not being wolfy or something that I think she would think is wolfy

gets mad at Laser for saying they could be V/V (I also think this could be TMI, since she wasn’t repping a super strong Laser townread at that point and she jumps to the assumption that Laser is a villa being fooled

this is a bad argument that I think she would recognize is bad, like, ‘tilted villa feels bad for tilting but keeps doing it’ is incredibly common

then she starts pushing Vul for a bit (this will be covered in the next session) and then comes back and decides Arctic is actually town

when Arctic expressed paranoia, this is how she responded:

I actually went to check and what had specifically happened at that point was that Arctic had started to tunnel Wind, I don’t super townread Wind but I do think that Marshal randomly reversing her read for no reason + Arctic starting to tunnel other people could easily be Marshal trying to get her to do literally what he describes here and I don’t really see why Marshal would randomly 180 for no reason as town if she was actually confident

Discrediting Vul

this is literally the first mention of Vul in her Iso

this would not be a completely awful read from the perspective of v!Marshal who actually believed those things but it would still be a pretty bad one

like she’s not actually looking at Vul’s reasoning, she’s just going after Vul for disagreeing – which she often does for less incorrect villas as wolf, and I think Vul is plausibly one of the most correct players in the game right now

this is pretty blatantly forcing a conclusion

town Marshal doesn’t believe that people’s motivations are irrelevant because they ‘could lie about it’

as is this is, like, explicitly ‘Vul wolf for disagreeing with me’

another gamestate read that she does absolutely zero with except using it to support her push

(apart from this which is like, barely even related)

misrepping how Vul was responding to pushes to make him look worse

this is where she pivots to more heavily pushing Vul

it lines up very closely with when Vul started to seriously say that Marshal could be wolf, which is consistent with Marshal’s modus operandi as wolf of trying to get people pushing her voted out

and not consistent with her townplay because the logic makes no fucking sense

‘you disproved my entire argument but I’m going to keep shading you for it’

this post is incredibly misreppy, like, Vul said that Marshal ‘lost the battle’ explicitly because if he gets voted out people would remember his Marshalread, it has nothing to do with his read on JC/min, this is completely ignoring Vul’s actual point to make him look bad

mostly wolfy in the context of her later claim that actually she had never really wolfread Arctic/Vul

Discrediting me

misreps me by claiming I hadn’t given many actual comments on her stances when I specifically called out several of her stances, that I had already explained repeatedly why I disagreed with, as being stances I disagreed with, which makes me feel like she was just trying to come up with some sort of reason to push me

this is also misreppy, the read in question was one where I basically understand why people might think that I just thought they were wrong

Marshal could believe this as town but I think it’s kind of weird since the last time we played together (Sorc17) she openly acknowledged that she couldn’t do the predict-y thing anymore (…and tried to use it to shade me)

this post is legitimately terrible, I know I’m biased but like

  • it goes from ‘they did this in one specific wolf game once’ to ‘therefore they are a wolf’ when in fact it’s a personality thing that they should be aware of because they’ve played enough games with me to know that
  • legit the entire argument here is that ‘having nuanced reads at all’ means you must be a wolf setting up progression
  • also some of it is just completely inaccurate? ‘Wind hasn’t been townie yet (yes I know she has a single digit postcount but they aren’t townie posts) (eta: it’s double digit now but they still aren’t townie)’ is not ‘setting up progression to take it back’ it’s ‘making a wolfread’

I think Marshal randomly bringing this up at a point when I had been gone from thread for 8 hours and therefore unable to read any Mistposts, and openly not caught up before that, is kind of agenda-y, but in maximum fairness to her she could have just not noticed or she could have been talking about posts from before I left

either of these reasons could individually be plausible but together they make no sense, she’s saying that I’m wolf for disagreeing with her and also wolf for the thing where I said that I disagreed with her and that that was wolfy and that therefore I was trying to use v/v violence against her

like this is another post that pretty clearly started with a conclusion

this is preemptively trying to discredit the fact that I’m going to push her by being like ‘oh of course Arete is going to push me but you shouldn’t listen to them because they’re a wolf’

Weird treatment of specifically the me + Vul dynamic

starts off shading us because Vul is townreading me

I think this is before she even started scumreading me?

anyways my issue with these posts is that she basically just starts with ‘what if Arete and Vul are w/w’ and goes from there, like she doesn’t consider the possibility that Vul could just be … town and right

but then decides we aren’t for unclear reasons – I think that Vul is a villager and she realized that she needed an argument that wouldn’t be disproven after a single flip

this also has the same problem where she’s starting from a conclusion and then finding evidence for it, and just not considering the world where we’re town and right, this time she does technically acknowledge the other possibility but in a very tepid way

this is a weaker point overall but it’s there

Bad reaction to questioning of her

So that last post I just quoted actually had a couple of people question it:

and here is how she reacted:

so first of all, this is an absurd overreaction to the point of being obviously fake. Like, a coule of people disagreeing with you is not the same thing as gaslighting.

second of all, she’s trying to look like the victim, like, ‘oh, people are trying to prevent me from saying that they’re v/v! this is so terrible! woe is me’ when no one is actually doing that

third of all she does literally zero with it, like, in other cases this game when she’s claimed to think people are trying to prevent her from expressing some read she’s been super reading into it and here she’s just not, at all (I think this is because the obvious reading conflicts with her agenda)

posts I think are villagery

she does have a few and I’m including them for completeness

I vaguely believe that she’d actually had that thought and then found it townie when Night did, like ‘same hat’

(ignoring the last sentence) I think this is a villagery think to think of

also this

I don’t think any of this outweighs the points against her but I thought I should list them for completeness/fairness

why you should listen to me

A big part of Marshal’s MO as a wolf is getting people who wolfread her voted out, and then convincing everyone, ‘oh, I just got them voted out because they were so wolfy, if only they hadn’t been so wolfy and made such terrible pushes I wouldn’t have inadvertently done that!’ (this is a strawman of how she does it but it is how she does it) and generally trying to get people to not listen to her. I realize that I am probably not going to convince anyone today but – that’s what’s going to happen tomorrow, almost certainly.

I expect that tomorrow-Marshal will point out that I have mistunnelled her before, which is true, but hasn’t been true for years, I have a better grasp of her playstyle now.

(alternatively we can just flip her today and not have to deal with tomorrow-Marshal, that is also an option)

I am not going to say she is literally 100% lock wolf, but I am very confident, and know her better than all of the non-FoLers and many of the FoLers. If it makes you feel better you can decide in advance to blame me if she flips town.

massping

@alana
@Arctic
@Arete
@bladescape
@Hippopablompoyeetus
@Illwei
@InternetStranger
@JohnCarter
@Kyubey
@LASERpointer
@Marluxion
@Marshal
@Millium
@min
@Mistyx
@Moonwink
@nightingale
@nutella
@Squirrel2412
@Vulgard
@Wazza
@WindwardAway
@Wisdom

3 Likes

it’s 5 AM and I am falling asleep where I’m sitting but I’ll stick around at least a little longer for questions

my god my cat is making it impossible to focus on the thread
he’s sitting between me and my monitor like the fucking guardian sphinx of the desert, protecting me from the horrors of the mouse pointer

anyway

nutella’s pushes all feel like “where can i put my vote and pressure without taking too much pressure in return”, it doesn’t feel like she believes in any of her pushes. i noticed it earlier when i was reading in bed, and i think this makes her even more likely than wazza to flip w

Summary

/vote Marshal @Nyarchmage

What’s your experience with Nutella wolf? Idr having any personally

i’ve been in games with her wolfing before but i never really put much effort into solving her, mostly because it’s always like mashes or larger games

this isn’t really a meta thing, just that i dont feel like she believes in any of her wolfreads

Did I just get a total stranger to write an essay on my meta?

tbh I do think there are too many posts to keep track of I’ve been trying not to complain because I actually voted against there being a postcap

Maybe some things about my long term play but nothing much except that maybe people often read into how agreeable I am and try to use it to scumread me when im simply trying to be less toxic but don’t think that’s relevant to here

oh yea illwei goes by mizery

In one game you fought for my vote in lylo

In the other game I was in a toxic thunderdome that derailed the entire thread

How can you not remember me

TARGET VOTES VOTED BY
Arete 5/12 Arctic (#1362); LASERpointer (#3152); Marshal (#3019); nutella (#2829); Wisdom (#3218)
Squirrel2412 5/12 bladescape (#2877); Mistyx (#2179); nightingale (#2895)
Wazza 3/12 Hippopablompoyeetus (#2824); JohnCarter (#166); WindwardAway (#3388)
Marshal 2/12 Arete (#3398); Moonwink (#3343)
JohnCarter 2/12 Vulgard (#3275); Wazza (#120)
nutella 1/12 Marluxion (#3390)
WindwardAway 1/12 Kyubey (#3155)
InternetStranger 1/12 Illwei (#2524)
Not Voting 5 alana; InternetStranger; Millium; min (#318); Squirrel2412 (#566)